[Discuss] Move camel-activemq component to camel project and deprecate camel plugin for broker

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[Discuss] Move camel-activemq component to camel project and deprecate camel plugin for broker

cschneider
There are some issues supporting the new camel version 2.18.x in
activemq. See

https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AMQ-6585

In the issue we discussed that it would be better to have the activemq
camel component in the camel project. There is also the question about
the camel plugin for the broker. I do not know any users who use camel
inside the activemq broker. So the proposal here is to deprecate and
remove the plugin at some point.

If both are removed from activemq source then managing the dependencies
is a lot easier.

What do you think?

Christian


--
Christian Schneider
http://www.liquid-reality.de

Open Source Architect
http://www.talend.com

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Re: [Discuss] Move camel-activemq component to camel project and deprecate camel plugin for broker

jbonofre
Hi Christian

It sounds good to me.

Thanks.
Regards
JB

On Feb 7, 2017, 06:38, at 06:38, Christian Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:

>There are some issues supporting the new camel version 2.18.x in
>activemq. See
>
>https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AMQ-6585
>
>In the issue we discussed that it would be better to have the activemq
>camel component in the camel project. There is also the question about
>the camel plugin for the broker. I do not know any users who use camel
>inside the activemq broker. So the proposal here is to deprecate and
>remove the plugin at some point.
>
>If both are removed from activemq source then managing the dependencies
>
>is a lot easier.
>
>What do you think?
>
>Christian
>
>
>--
>Christian Schneider
>http://www.liquid-reality.de
>
>Open Source Architect
>http://www.talend.com
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Re: [Discuss] Move camel-activemq component to camel project and deprecate camel plugin for broker

clebertsuconic
+1

That actually makes things a lot clearer to me.


On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 7:11 AM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Christian
>
> It sounds good to me.
>
> Thanks.
> Regards
> JB
>
> On Feb 7, 2017, 06:38, at 06:38, Christian Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>There are some issues supporting the new camel version 2.18.x in
>>activemq. See
>>
>>https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AMQ-6585
>>
>>In the issue we discussed that it would be better to have the activemq
>>camel component in the camel project. There is also the question about
>>the camel plugin for the broker. I do not know any users who use camel
>>inside the activemq broker. So the proposal here is to deprecate and
>>remove the plugin at some point.
>>
>>If both are removed from activemq source then managing the dependencies
>>
>>is a lot easier.
>>
>>What do you think?
>>
>>Christian
>>
>>
>>--
>>Christian Schneider
>>http://www.liquid-reality.de
>>
>>Open Source Architect
>>http://www.talend.com



--
Clebert Suconic
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Re: [Discuss] Move camel-activemq component to camel project and deprecate camel plugin for broker

christopher.l.shannon
+1, it makes sense to me.  I suppose it would be good to hear what Claus
thinks about moving it to see if there would be any potential issues or
reasons not to move it.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 10:01 AM, Clebert Suconic <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> +1
>
> That actually makes things a lot clearer to me.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 7:11 AM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Hi Christian
> >
> > It sounds good to me.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Regards
> > JB
> >
> > On Feb 7, 2017, 06:38, at 06:38, Christian Schneider <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>There are some issues supporting the new camel version 2.18.x in
> >>activemq. See
> >>
> >>https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AMQ-6585
> >>
> >>In the issue we discussed that it would be better to have the activemq
> >>camel component in the camel project. There is also the question about
> >>the camel plugin for the broker. I do not know any users who use camel
> >>inside the activemq broker. So the proposal here is to deprecate and
> >>remove the plugin at some point.
> >>
> >>If both are removed from activemq source then managing the dependencies
> >>
> >>is a lot easier.
> >>
> >>What do you think?
> >>
> >>Christian
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Christian Schneider
> >>http://www.liquid-reality.de
> >>
> >>Open Source Architect
> >>http://www.talend.com
>
>
>
> --
> Clebert Suconic
>
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Re: [Discuss] Move camel-activemq component to camel project and deprecate camel plugin for broker

nigro_franz
+1

Makes sense at all, it will be a lot more maintainable!
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Re: [Discuss] Move camel-activemq component to camel project and deprecate camel plugin for broker

Claus Ibsen
In reply to this post by cschneider
On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Christian Schneider
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> There are some issues supporting the new camel version 2.18.x in activemq.
> See
>
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AMQ-6585
>

I think this ticket surfaces a problem in ActiveMQ about its OSGi
code/stuff being problematic. That its xbean stuff is causing more
pain than good. I wonder if ActiveMQ should consider a different
approach for those xml file configurations to work without xbean or
make it work for OSGi.


Moving activemq-camel to Apache Camel moves the dependency problem to
Camel. However as Camel uses ActiveMQ for testing camel-jms we already
use AMQ, so it may be less of a problem there.

Also it allows activme-camel to be released together with Camel and
benefit from new functionality from Camel being released together.

And we could potentially make activemq-camel (to be renamed to
camel-activemq) just reuse all the unit tests from camel-jms so we
dont have to write any tests and just let it be an optimized camel-jms
component which it really is.



> In the issue we discussed that it would be better to have the activemq camel
> component in the camel project. There is also the question about the camel
> plugin for the broker. I do not know any users who use camel inside the
> activemq broker. So the proposal here is to deprecate and remove the plugin
> at some point.
>

There are some community users that uses the Camel broker component.
I dont yet think it should be deprecated. It allows functionality that
there is not in ActiveMQ.
And ActiveMQ ships with Camel and Camel and AMQ together is a great combination.


> If both are removed from activemq source then managing the dependencies is a
> lot easier.
>

I frankly think its the OSGi pain that is causing this. If AMQ just
works on OSGi then this wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

-0 to broker (need more feedback from community and others)
+1 to activemq-camel (however need to see how bad/good this is and
allow to revert the decision if it causes to much pain)


> What do you think?
>
> Christian
>
>
> --
> Christian Schneider
> http://www.liquid-reality.de
>
> Open Source Architect
> http://www.talend.com
>



--
Claus Ibsen
-----------------
http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
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Re: [Discuss] Move camel-activemq component to camel project and deprecate camel plugin for broker

cschneider
Hi Claus,

I think there is a deeper problem to this. Camel does not have a small
and stable API. So anything that integrates deeply with camel like the
activemq camel component or the camel plugin are kind of coupled to a
certain camel release. If anything bigger is changed in camel it will
break. So I think it is more logical to move such things to camel.
Of course the activemq camel plugin is also coupled to activemq which
makes it especially problematic. This is why I am in favour of retiring
it. I think almost all of its functionality can be also implemented
using camel outside of the broker (Either in the same process or
outside). If we keep it we must make sure the coupling is minimal. I do
not know much of the inner workings of it but I can imagine it is very
difficult to decouple the camel plugin from changes in camel.

In long term keeping the projects as separate as possible will make sure
they can evolve at their own pace.

Christian

On 08.02.2017 09:59, Claus Ibsen wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Christian Schneider
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> There are some issues supporting the new camel version 2.18.x in activemq.
>> See
>>
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AMQ-6585
>>
> I think this ticket surfaces a problem in ActiveMQ about its OSGi
> code/stuff being problematic. That its xbean stuff is causing more
> pain than good. I wonder if ActiveMQ should consider a different
> approach for those xml file configurations to work without xbean or
> make it work for OSGi.
>
>
> Moving activemq-camel to Apache Camel moves the dependency problem to
> Camel. However as Camel uses ActiveMQ for testing camel-jms we already
> use AMQ, so it may be less of a problem there.
>
> Also it allows activme-camel to be released together with Camel and
> benefit from new functionality from Camel being released together.
>
> And we could potentially make activemq-camel (to be renamed to
> camel-activemq) just reuse all the unit tests from camel-jms so we
> dont have to write any tests and just let it be an optimized camel-jms
> component which it really is.
>
>
>
>> In the issue we discussed that it would be better to have the activemq camel
>> component in the camel project. There is also the question about the camel
>> plugin for the broker. I do not know any users who use camel inside the
>> activemq broker. So the proposal here is to deprecate and remove the plugin
>> at some point.
>>
> There are some community users that uses the Camel broker component.
> I dont yet think it should be deprecated. It allows functionality that
> there is not in ActiveMQ.
> And ActiveMQ ships with Camel and Camel and AMQ together is a great combination.
>
>
>> If both are removed from activemq source then managing the dependencies is a
>> lot easier.
>>
> I frankly think its the OSGi pain that is causing this. If AMQ just
> works on OSGi then this wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
>
> -0 to broker (need more feedback from community and others)
> +1 to activemq-camel (however need to see how bad/good this is and
> allow to revert the decision if it causes to much pain)
>
>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Christian
>>
>>
>> --
>> Christian Schneider
>> http://www.liquid-reality.de
>>
>> Open Source Architect
>> http://www.talend.com
>>
>
>


--
Christian Schneider
http://www.liquid-reality.de

Open Source Architect
http://www.talend.com

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Re: [Discuss] Move camel-activemq component to camel project and deprecate camel plugin for broker

Claus Ibsen
In reply to this post by Claus Ibsen
On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Claus Ibsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Christian Schneider
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> There are some issues supporting the new camel version 2.18.x in activemq.
>> See
>>
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AMQ-6585
>>
>
> I think this ticket surfaces a problem in ActiveMQ about its OSGi
> code/stuff being problematic. That its xbean stuff is causing more
> pain than good. I wonder if ActiveMQ should consider a different
> approach for those xml file configurations to work without xbean or
> make it work for OSGi.
>
>
> Moving activemq-camel to Apache Camel moves the dependency problem to
> Camel. However as Camel uses ActiveMQ for testing camel-jms we already
> use AMQ, so it may be less of a problem there.
>
> Also it allows activme-camel to be released together with Camel and
> benefit from new functionality from Camel being released together.
>
> And we could potentially make activemq-camel (to be renamed to
> camel-activemq) just reuse all the unit tests from camel-jms so we
> dont have to write any tests and just let it be an optimized camel-jms
> component which it really is.
>
>
>
>> In the issue we discussed that it would be better to have the activemq camel
>> component in the camel project. There is also the question about the camel
>> plugin for the broker. I do not know any users who use camel inside the
>> activemq broker. So the proposal here is to deprecate and remove the plugin
>> at some point.
>>
>
> There are some community users that uses the Camel broker component.
> I dont yet think it should be deprecated. It allows functionality that
> there is not in ActiveMQ.
> And ActiveMQ ships with Camel and Camel and AMQ together is a great combination.
>
>
>> If both are removed from activemq source then managing the dependencies is a
>> lot easier.
>>
>
> I frankly think its the OSGi pain that is causing this. If AMQ just
> works on OSGi then this wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
>
> -0 to broker (need more feedback from community and others)

For the broker component you can likely just use a Camel XML file and
use Camel routes to do the same as the broker component can do.

And there hasn't been too many users of it so far, but a few have been
doing so. And if they can migrate to using plain Camel routes then it
makes sense to deprecate it too.

So let me change to +1


> +1 to activemq-camel (however need to see how bad/good this is and
> allow to revert the decision if it causes to much pain)
>
>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Christian
>>
>>
>> --
>> Christian Schneider
>> http://www.liquid-reality.de
>>
>> Open Source Architect
>> http://www.talend.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Claus Ibsen
> -----------------
> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2



--
Claus Ibsen
-----------------
http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
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Re: [Discuss] Move camel-activemq component to camel project and deprecate camel plugin for broker

christopher.l.shannon
Since the plan would be to deprecate the plugin first (like we did with
leveldb) then I guess that means it would still stick around for 5.15.0 so
we still need an upgrade path for Camel 2.18.x and we need to fix the OSGi
integration.  I think the first step will be to embed the xbean library
(maybe the activemq-spring project) and look for a better approach in the
future.

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 5:07 AM, Claus Ibsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Claus Ibsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Christian Schneider
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> There are some issues supporting the new camel version 2.18.x in
> activemq.
> >> See
> >>
> >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AMQ-6585
> >>
> >
> > I think this ticket surfaces a problem in ActiveMQ about its OSGi
> > code/stuff being problematic. That its xbean stuff is causing more
> > pain than good. I wonder if ActiveMQ should consider a different
> > approach for those xml file configurations to work without xbean or
> > make it work for OSGi.
> >
> >
> > Moving activemq-camel to Apache Camel moves the dependency problem to
> > Camel. However as Camel uses ActiveMQ for testing camel-jms we already
> > use AMQ, so it may be less of a problem there.
> >
> > Also it allows activme-camel to be released together with Camel and
> > benefit from new functionality from Camel being released together.
> >
> > And we could potentially make activemq-camel (to be renamed to
> > camel-activemq) just reuse all the unit tests from camel-jms so we
> > dont have to write any tests and just let it be an optimized camel-jms
> > component which it really is.
> >
> >
> >
> >> In the issue we discussed that it would be better to have the activemq
> camel
> >> component in the camel project. There is also the question about the
> camel
> >> plugin for the broker. I do not know any users who use camel inside the
> >> activemq broker. So the proposal here is to deprecate and remove the
> plugin
> >> at some point.
> >>
> >
> > There are some community users that uses the Camel broker component.
> > I dont yet think it should be deprecated. It allows functionality that
> > there is not in ActiveMQ.
> > And ActiveMQ ships with Camel and Camel and AMQ together is a great
> combination.
> >
> >
> >> If both are removed from activemq source then managing the dependencies
> is a
> >> lot easier.
> >>
> >
> > I frankly think its the OSGi pain that is causing this. If AMQ just
> > works on OSGi then this wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
> >
> > -0 to broker (need more feedback from community and others)
>
> For the broker component you can likely just use a Camel XML file and
> use Camel routes to do the same as the broker component can do.
>
> And there hasn't been too many users of it so far, but a few have been
> doing so. And if they can migrate to using plain Camel routes then it
> makes sense to deprecate it too.
>
> So let me change to +1
>
>
> > +1 to activemq-camel (however need to see how bad/good this is and
> > allow to revert the decision if it causes to much pain)
> >
> >
> >> What do you think?
> >>
> >> Christian
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Christian Schneider
> >> http://www.liquid-reality.de
> >>
> >> Open Source Architect
> >> http://www.talend.com
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Claus Ibsen
> > -----------------
> > http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
> > Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>
>
>
> --
> Claus Ibsen
> -----------------
> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>
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Re: [Discuss] Move camel-activemq component to camel project and deprecate camel plugin for broker

Krzysztof Sobkowiak
Hi

I think the fix for AMQ-6576 embeds already the spring xbean in activemq-osgi.

Kindly regards
Krzysztof

On 08.02.2017 13:53, Christopher Shannon wrote:

> Since the plan would be to deprecate the plugin first (like we did with
> leveldb) then I guess that means it would still stick around for 5.15.0 so
> we still need an upgrade path for Camel 2.18.x and we need to fix the OSGi
> integration.  I think the first step will be to embed the xbean library
> (maybe the activemq-spring project) and look for a better approach in the
> future.
>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 5:07 AM, Claus Ibsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Claus Ibsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Christian Schneider
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> There are some issues supporting the new camel version 2.18.x in
>> activemq.
>>>> See
>>>>
>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AMQ-6585
>>>>
>>> I think this ticket surfaces a problem in ActiveMQ about its OSGi
>>> code/stuff being problematic. That its xbean stuff is causing more
>>> pain than good. I wonder if ActiveMQ should consider a different
>>> approach for those xml file configurations to work without xbean or
>>> make it work for OSGi.
>>>
>>>
>>> Moving activemq-camel to Apache Camel moves the dependency problem to
>>> Camel. However as Camel uses ActiveMQ for testing camel-jms we already
>>> use AMQ, so it may be less of a problem there.
>>>
>>> Also it allows activme-camel to be released together with Camel and
>>> benefit from new functionality from Camel being released together.
>>>
>>> And we could potentially make activemq-camel (to be renamed to
>>> camel-activemq) just reuse all the unit tests from camel-jms so we
>>> dont have to write any tests and just let it be an optimized camel-jms
>>> component which it really is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> In the issue we discussed that it would be better to have the activemq
>> camel
>>>> component in the camel project. There is also the question about the
>> camel
>>>> plugin for the broker. I do not know any users who use camel inside the
>>>> activemq broker. So the proposal here is to deprecate and remove the
>> plugin
>>>> at some point.
>>>>
>>> There are some community users that uses the Camel broker component.
>>> I dont yet think it should be deprecated. It allows functionality that
>>> there is not in ActiveMQ.
>>> And ActiveMQ ships with Camel and Camel and AMQ together is a great
>> combination.
>>>
>>>> If both are removed from activemq source then managing the dependencies
>> is a
>>>> lot easier.
>>>>
>>> I frankly think its the OSGi pain that is causing this. If AMQ just
>>> works on OSGi then this wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
>>>
>>> -0 to broker (need more feedback from community and others)
>> For the broker component you can likely just use a Camel XML file and
>> use Camel routes to do the same as the broker component can do.
>>
>> And there hasn't been too many users of it so far, but a few have been
>> doing so. And if they can migrate to using plain Camel routes then it
>> makes sense to deprecate it too.
>>
>> So let me change to +1
>>
>>
>>> +1 to activemq-camel (however need to see how bad/good this is and
>>> allow to revert the decision if it causes to much pain)
>>>
>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>> Christian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Christian Schneider
>>>> http://www.liquid-reality.de
>>>>
>>>> Open Source Architect
>>>> http://www.talend.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Claus Ibsen
>>> -----------------
>>> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
>>> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>>
>>
>> --
>> Claus Ibsen
>> -----------------
>> http://davsclaus.com @davsclaus
>> Camel in Action 2: https://www.manning.com/ibsen2
>>

--
Krzysztof Sobkowiak (@ksobkowiak)

JEE & OSS Architect, Integration Architect
Apache Software Foundation Member (http://apache.org/)
Apache ServiceMix Committer & PMC Member (http://servicemix.apache.org/)
Senior Solution Architect @ Capgemini SSC (http://www.capgeminisoftware.pl/)