[DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...

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Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...

John D. Ament-2
From the VP Incubator's standpoint (as well as infrequent ActiveMQ
contributor)

I see a lot of new projects coming on board, starting off with a dev@ list,
getting the notifications there.  With tools like github, since you're
getting the notification personally (when it involves you) as well as on
list, it becomes noise.  You have the option to subscribe where you want to
on github, and as a result many of those podlings eventually create a
separate notifications@ or commits@ list that receive the messages.  So
there is actual precedence for creating lists dedicated to those messages.

It satisfies all of the foundation level requirements (discussions on list,
archived) while giving developers clear separation of which lists do what.

Since Artemis is a subproject, you may even want to entertain creating a
separate [hidden email] list for development discussions specific
to Artemis.

John

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:05 PM Clebert Suconic <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> @Daniel: that's a general issue at apache.. not just activemq... just
> looked now.. it's the same pattern everywhere...
>
>
> It would be nice if we could fix this rule in apache... PRs is a new
> thing.. and the rules needs to be updated... how/where do we go to
> have a wider discussion?
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > They are different though… A PR discussion is exactly that… a
> discussion.   If there are things in the PR discussions like code
> suggestions and back and forth about opinions on how something is done and
> such, they SHOULD be on the dev list as they are dev discussions.   The
> commit is more “final”.
> >
> > That is also the reason that the “reply-to” field on the commit list is
> the dev list.   If you reply to a commit, it’s starting a discussion which
> goes to the dev list.     Thus, if we wanted to completely mimic the
> commits, it would be that the “Open PR” and “Close PR" emails would go to a
> different list, but any discussion/replys would go to the dev list.     I’m
> not sure that buys much.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Clebert Suconic <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> You could use the same argument to have committs being fed here...
> >> it's too noisy!
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Timothy Bish <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>> -1
> >>>
> >>> Unless PR discussions can exist on the dev list I'm against moving
> that to
> >>> another list as that is part of the development process.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 12/06/2017 05:34 PM, Clebert Suconic wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> in my view... and in my plan... going forward now I plan to make more
> >>>> discussions on the dev list.. especially around this Roadmap idea.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> What if:
> >>>>
> >>>> - We move github traffic to another list.. (commit perhaps)?
> >>>> - We can still use github to talk about spot on issues.. such as.. the
> >>>> format here sucks... the logic here is not accurate.. etc.. etc...
> >>>> which this is the kind of noise that's feeding this list like crazy.
> >>>>  ..... You could use the same argument to bring JIRA comments to the
> >>>> dev list.. it would be too noise.. I believe that's been the case at
> >>>> some point
> >>>>
> >>>> But if there is a meaningful discussion... then we would refer the
> >>>> dev-list... just like as we do in other places. (JIRA, private list..
> >>>> etc.. etc)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> That seems a reasonable thing to me. It would help us to be more
> >>>> active on the dev list.. which is what we need now.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:20 PM, jgenender <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Daniel Kulp wrote
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I’m -0.5 on moving them.  PR’s (and the conversations in them) are
> part
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> the development process and should be on the dev list.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But the deluge often loses the discussion which is why some projects
> have
> >>>>> commit lists.  This is the difference between projects that work off
> PRs
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> projects whose committers mainly just commit directly to the
> repository.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Unfortunately as pointed out earlier, the volume of noise created
> causes
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> certain amount of people to lose conversations.  Some use Nabble,
> some
> >>>>> use
> >>>>> an email client.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Sent from:
> >>>>> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Tim Bish
> >>> twitter: @tabish121
> >>> blog: http://timbish.blogspot.com/
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Clebert Suconic
> >
> > --
> > Daniel Kulp
> > [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
> > Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Clebert Suconic
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...

clebertsuconic
It seems to me that we should then move it... people who need can
still follow up... it would be a nice compromise for everybody...

Would we be ok to move github comments to the commit list? ( I think
that't the list we should use).

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 7:45 PM, John D. Ament <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From the VP Incubator's standpoint (as well as infrequent ActiveMQ
> contributor)
>
> I see a lot of new projects coming on board, starting off with a dev@ list,
> getting the notifications there.  With tools like github, since you're
> getting the notification personally (when it involves you) as well as on
> list, it becomes noise.  You have the option to subscribe where you want to
> on github, and as a result many of those podlings eventually create a
> separate notifications@ or commits@ list that receive the messages.  So
> there is actual precedence for creating lists dedicated to those messages.
>
> It satisfies all of the foundation level requirements (discussions on list,
> archived) while giving developers clear separation of which lists do what.
>
> Since Artemis is a subproject, you may even want to entertain creating a
> separate [hidden email] list for development discussions specific
> to Artemis.
>
> John
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:05 PM Clebert Suconic <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> @Daniel: that's a general issue at apache.. not just activemq... just
>> looked now.. it's the same pattern everywhere...
>>
>>
>> It would be nice if we could fix this rule in apache... PRs is a new
>> thing.. and the rules needs to be updated... how/where do we go to
>> have a wider discussion?
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > They are different though… A PR discussion is exactly that… a
>> discussion.   If there are things in the PR discussions like code
>> suggestions and back and forth about opinions on how something is done and
>> such, they SHOULD be on the dev list as they are dev discussions.   The
>> commit is more “final”.
>> >
>> > That is also the reason that the “reply-to” field on the commit list is
>> the dev list.   If you reply to a commit, it’s starting a discussion which
>> goes to the dev list.     Thus, if we wanted to completely mimic the
>> commits, it would be that the “Open PR” and “Close PR" emails would go to a
>> different list, but any discussion/replys would go to the dev list.     I’m
>> not sure that buys much.
>> >
>> > Dan
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Clebert Suconic <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> You could use the same argument to have committs being fed here...
>> >> it's too noisy!
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Timothy Bish <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >>> -1
>> >>>
>> >>> Unless PR discussions can exist on the dev list I'm against moving
>> that to
>> >>> another list as that is part of the development process.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 12/06/2017 05:34 PM, Clebert Suconic wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> in my view... and in my plan... going forward now I plan to make more
>> >>>> discussions on the dev list.. especially around this Roadmap idea.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What if:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> - We move github traffic to another list.. (commit perhaps)?
>> >>>> - We can still use github to talk about spot on issues.. such as.. the
>> >>>> format here sucks... the logic here is not accurate.. etc.. etc...
>> >>>> which this is the kind of noise that's feeding this list like crazy.
>> >>>>  ..... You could use the same argument to bring JIRA comments to the
>> >>>> dev list.. it would be too noise.. I believe that's been the case at
>> >>>> some point
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But if there is a meaningful discussion... then we would refer the
>> >>>> dev-list... just like as we do in other places. (JIRA, private list..
>> >>>> etc.. etc)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That seems a reasonable thing to me. It would help us to be more
>> >>>> active on the dev list.. which is what we need now.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:20 PM, jgenender <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Daniel Kulp wrote
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I’m -0.5 on moving them.  PR’s (and the conversations in them) are
>> part
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>>>>> the development process and should be on the dev list.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> But the deluge often loses the discussion which is why some projects
>> have
>> >>>>> commit lists.  This is the difference between projects that work off
>> PRs
>> >>>>> and
>> >>>>> projects whose committers mainly just commit directly to the
>> repository.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Unfortunately as pointed out earlier, the volume of noise created
>> causes
>> >>>>> a
>> >>>>> certain amount of people to lose conversations.  Some use Nabble,
>> some
>> >>>>> use
>> >>>>> an email client.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Sent from:
>> >>>>> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Tim Bish
>> >>> twitter: @tabish121
>> >>> blog: http://timbish.blogspot.com/
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Clebert Suconic
>> >
>> > --
>> > Daniel Kulp
>> > [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
>> > Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Clebert Suconic
>>



--
Clebert Suconic
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Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...

Martyn Taylor
+0.  I manage just fine using filters and also use the dev list to conduct
PR discussions.  I am not against the idea of using separate lists, if
others think it'd be useful.

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 1:08 AM, Clebert Suconic <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> It seems to me that we should then move it... people who need can
> still follow up... it would be a nice compromise for everybody...
>
> Would we be ok to move github comments to the commit list? ( I think
> that't the list we should use).
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 7:45 PM, John D. Ament <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > From the VP Incubator's standpoint (as well as infrequent ActiveMQ
> > contributor)
> >
> > I see a lot of new projects coming on board, starting off with a dev@
> list,
> > getting the notifications there.  With tools like github, since you're
> > getting the notification personally (when it involves you) as well as on
> > list, it becomes noise.  You have the option to subscribe where you want
> to
> > on github, and as a result many of those podlings eventually create a
> > separate notifications@ or commits@ list that receive the messages.  So
> > there is actual precedence for creating lists dedicated to those
> messages.
> >
> > It satisfies all of the foundation level requirements (discussions on
> list,
> > archived) while giving developers clear separation of which lists do
> what.
> >
> > Since Artemis is a subproject, you may even want to entertain creating a
> > separate [hidden email] list for development discussions
> specific
> > to Artemis.
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:05 PM Clebert Suconic <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> @Daniel: that's a general issue at apache.. not just activemq... just
> >> looked now.. it's the same pattern everywhere...
> >>
> >>
> >> It would be nice if we could fix this rule in apache... PRs is a new
> >> thing.. and the rules needs to be updated... how/where do we go to
> >> have a wider discussion?
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > They are different though… A PR discussion is exactly that… a
> >> discussion.   If there are things in the PR discussions like code
> >> suggestions and back and forth about opinions on how something is done
> and
> >> such, they SHOULD be on the dev list as they are dev discussions.   The
> >> commit is more “final”.
> >> >
> >> > That is also the reason that the “reply-to” field on the commit list
> is
> >> the dev list.   If you reply to a commit, it’s starting a discussion
> which
> >> goes to the dev list.     Thus, if we wanted to completely mimic the
> >> commits, it would be that the “Open PR” and “Close PR" emails would go
> to a
> >> different list, but any discussion/replys would go to the dev list.
>  I’m
> >> not sure that buys much.
> >> >
> >> > Dan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Clebert Suconic <
> [hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> You could use the same argument to have committs being fed here...
> >> >> it's too noisy!
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Timothy Bish <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>> -1
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Unless PR discussions can exist on the dev list I'm against moving
> >> that to
> >> >>> another list as that is part of the development process.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On 12/06/2017 05:34 PM, Clebert Suconic wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> in my view... and in my plan... going forward now I plan to make
> more
> >> >>>> discussions on the dev list.. especially around this Roadmap idea.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> What if:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> - We move github traffic to another list.. (commit perhaps)?
> >> >>>> - We can still use github to talk about spot on issues.. such as..
> the
> >> >>>> format here sucks... the logic here is not accurate.. etc.. etc...
> >> >>>> which this is the kind of noise that's feeding this list like
> crazy.
> >> >>>>  ..... You could use the same argument to bring JIRA comments to
> the
> >> >>>> dev list.. it would be too noise.. I believe that's been the case
> at
> >> >>>> some point
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> But if there is a meaningful discussion... then we would refer the
> >> >>>> dev-list... just like as we do in other places. (JIRA, private
> list..
> >> >>>> etc.. etc)
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> That seems a reasonable thing to me. It would help us to be more
> >> >>>> active on the dev list.. which is what we need now.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:20 PM, jgenender <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Daniel Kulp wrote
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I’m -0.5 on moving them.  PR’s (and the conversations in them)
> are
> >> part
> >> >>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>> the development process and should be on the dev list.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> But the deluge often loses the discussion which is why some
> projects
> >> have
> >> >>>>> commit lists.  This is the difference between projects that work
> off
> >> PRs
> >> >>>>> and
> >> >>>>> projects whose committers mainly just commit directly to the
> >> repository.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Unfortunately as pointed out earlier, the volume of noise created
> >> causes
> >> >>>>> a
> >> >>>>> certain amount of people to lose conversations.  Some use Nabble,
> >> some
> >> >>>>> use
> >> >>>>> an email client.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> --
> >> >>>>> Sent from:
> >> >>>>> http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Tim Bish
> >> >>> twitter: @tabish121
> >> >>> blog: http://timbish.blogspot.com/
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Clebert Suconic
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Daniel Kulp
> >> > [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
> >> > Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Clebert Suconic
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> Clebert Suconic
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...

artnaseef
I'm putting this out there - hope folks will read it as I found it very
helpful.  It's not technical...

https://www.stephencovey.com/7habits/7habits-habit4.php

The numbered list is the most pertinent part IMO.  I post it here because I
see a trend in the communication that I think this helps to address.

Art

P.S. Yes, I'm a huge fan of Stephen Covey.



--
Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
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Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...

Jiri Danek
In reply to this post by clebertsuconic
Given that the message volume of non-PR messages on the dev@ list is not
that high, wouldn't it make some sense to
discuss anything which is not low-level code-oriented stuff on the users@
list, and keep using dev@ for archiving the low-level code-focused PR
discussions?
--
Jiri Daněk
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Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...

clebertsuconic
There is more to dev discussions than just code.

Example. Roadmap. Architectural decisions.  High level stuff that could
catch some folks who’s opinion are valuable but don’t like spending time on
messages like.  Hey there is an extra space here. Things we talk on GitHub
PR.

This change can’t bother devs.  It doesn’t bother me. But I see the value
of it for people with that high level mentality.

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 10:44 AM Jiri Danek <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Given that the message volume of non-PR messages on the dev@ list is not
> that high, wouldn't it make some sense to
> discuss anything which is not low-level code-oriented stuff on the users@
> list, and keep using dev@ for archiving the low-level code-focused PR
> discussions?
> --
> Jiri Daněk
>
--
Clebert Suconic
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Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...

artnaseef
For all the folks arguing that change is not needed - let me ask a question.

Is the concern clear?

I thought Clebert's post showing the mailing list did a good job, but we can
talk more about the concern.



--
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Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...

MichaelAndrePearce
Just to clear on my comment much earlier on, it’s my feeling about it only. I’m not strongly opinionated thus I didn’t -1 or +1 it, maybe I should have +0 it, I personally wouldn’t change it, but if the group wants to I won’t be upset either.

it’s email after all I’m sure and i can always subscribe to an extra list.



Sent from my iPhone

> On 7 Dec 2017, at 17:25, artnaseef <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> For all the folks arguing that change is not needed - let me ask a question.
>
> Is the concern clear?
>
> I thought Clebert's post showing the mailing list did a good job, but we can
> talk more about the concern.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-f2368404.html
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Re: [DISCUSS] Move PR discussions to another list...

artnaseef
Thanks Michael.

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Michael André Pearce <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just to clear on my comment much earlier on, it’s my feeling about it
> only. I’m not strongly opinionated thus I didn’t -1 or +1 it, maybe I
> should have +0 it, I personally wouldn’t change it, but if the group wants
> to I won’t be upset either.
>
> it’s email after all I’m sure and i can always subscribe to an extra list.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 7 Dec 2017, at 17:25, artnaseef <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > For all the folks arguing that change is not needed - let me ask a
> question.
> >
> > Is the concern clear?
> >
> > I thought Clebert's post showing the mailing list did a good job, but we
> can
> > talk more about the concern.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://activemq.2283324.n4.nabble.com/ActiveMQ-Dev-
> f2368404.html
>
12